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Report 1637
Special Report #1637 Skillset: Kata Skill: BleedingMonks Org: Shofangi Status: Completed Apr 2017 Furies' Decision: Solution 3 Problem: Currently all monks are heavily built on bleeding which is difficult to balance because each player has a varying ability to cure bleeding and when one cannot clot off all bleeding (and heal through the mana drain that causes) the resultant bleed punishes the same vitals that would be used to cure more bleeding so the effect snowballs. This creates an issue where a monk either does enough bleeding to dent someone with 12k max mana which means they absolutely nuke someone with 8k max mana, or monks are unable to kill anyone with a mana rune. This is not new issue with bleeding but now monks are the only archetype that have bleeding as their primary kill condition. This report seeks to create a method by which a monk can eventually build lethal levels of bleeding allowing solo viability, while also allowing the drop of upfront bleeding which will make monks in groups more bareable. Solution #1: Add a 'deep bleeding' mechanic, perhaps called hemorrhaging. Hemorrhaging is a numerical status that cures itself over time, a target cannot clot their bruising or bleeding below their hemorrhaging level. Note that when hitting this clot limit you should not be charged mana for attempting it. Building hemorrhaging should require targetting a certain body part (probably gut) so that parry becomes a factor. The route to building hemorrhaging should not overlap greatly with forms that do great up front bleeding or great afflicting. Solution #2: Add a 'deep bleeding' mechanic, perhaps called hemorrhaging that acts as a burst pool of bleeding. This would also cure over time as in solution 1 but would have no other effect other than through being activated by monk spec abilities, curing all hemorrhaging but causing an appropriate amount of bleeding/bruising based on the guild. This creates a burst window where the monk must either achieve/build to a kill or reset. Player Comments: ---on 3/19 @ 07:17 writes: I'm putting this up to generate discussion because it's something that impacts monks greatly and the game as whole. This long report is a reduction of a much longer document which you can find here: http://pastebin.com/gCNHQ7vj This report only features two subsolutions from the first solution in that document because this solution is the only one that does not cause a need to re-evaluate other bleeding guilds and bleeding mobs. If there is consensus for something else I'll remake this report in that direction. ---on 3/19 @ 11:54 writes: Eh. I'm not too sure of the premise myself. Because bleeding is a snowballing mechanic, there is simply no max mana level that can become completely immune to bleed - on theory, at least. What I personally felt we need to do is to ensure that the flat, upfront bleed does not simply decimate huge amounts of immediately - but allow monks to multiply off the bleed they have already built, to keep going higher (lower flat bleed, put in more bleed multipliers where there are problems etc). I mean, I'm not opposed to making a new mechanic that imposes a bleeding-floor that builds up over time, but do remember that allowing bleed to tick on health is a very painful thing to happen. It'll be very potent vitals pressure. Alternatively, the burst version is also interesting. I'm just not 100% sure we want to rework bleeding mechanics entirely like this. I think lower mana people should face a disadvantage against bleeds, as long as we balance at a reasonable mana level. ---on 3/19 @ 17:41 writes: In response to your last statement I think the best way I could rewrite my problem statement in one sentence is: there is no reasonable level to balance bleed around. If our bleeding is so heavy that we can build to killing levels solo then we'll be insane in groups. If our bleeding is reasonable in groups it means we probably can't build solo. Bleed is only a snowball mechanic if you can actually build mana loss, and that is not guaranteed for any given amount of bleed on any given player. For example if the mana used to cure bleeding can be entirely absorbed by sparkleberry, you're not building bleeding and there is no snowball. It's true that we can balance around the top tier and make bleeding levels so high that no one can absorb it but that will nuke lower mana players more quickly. I agree that there isn't inherently a problem with lower mana folks having a disadvantage, the problem is it changes the kill time pretty drastically. I think in both of these solutions that high mana targets still have have an advantage against bleeding, especially sol. 2. In the case of sol 1 it's true that the advantage would be nullified if the monk only built hemorrhaging, but since I envision this path being relatively light on afflictions and raw bleeding that's still an advantage because it means the monk had to choose a suboptimal path to kill you. I don't think minimum bleeding could possibly be worse vital pressure than what monks are capable of dishing out now. The more I think about it the more I am against bleeding multipliers based on current bleeding. Bleeding that has been built up is already snowballing, snowballing that even further seems harder to balance. ---on 3/20 @ 01:41 writes: I think this report and my report about multipliers is very connected, yes. I think you're mistaking something as well: bleed that becomes "left-over" does not have to be because the target has run out of mana. Nekotai specifically has always functioned on a bleed snowball in the past via vessels - the more it builds, the more bleed there is, even if the target's mana is still high, which leads to more vessels (when the target needs to sip mana), which leads to more snowball etc. This is the old Nekotai bleed snowball. Currently, Nekotai bleed snowball is based off haemophilia. The Nekotai vessels pressure has dropped significantly from the past, so it has been replaced with haemophilia to enable the target to still have bleed "left-over" even when their mana is high, and then to snowball from this state. The reasonable balance I'm talking about should be mostly on the flat bleed - limiting how much flat bleed a class can put out in a short period of time: without properly using haemophilia (or vessels) to snowball, the flat bleed shouldn't be pressuring mana significantly at the targeted level of mana. Say, a demigod with 3 levels in manabuff. This means anyone with lower mana than that will find the bleed will overcome them without needing to be snowballed, but anyone that is higher will take longer to snowball. But at the end of the day, it must still be possible. This is why multipliers are integral - to Nekotai at least. I'm not sure about the other monks. But some way of temporarily preventing bleed from being fully clotted (ie. your solution 1) will STILL need to be accompanied by bleed multipliers, otherwise, it will never snowball enough to hit the higher mana targets. As for finding the reasonable "balanced" level of mana for your flat bleed. Nekotai is sort of balanced at this point in time around 8k to 9k mana. If you have less mana than that, our flat bleed puts up a lot of pressure on your mana pool. Higher, and we have to work harder. I don't intend to change how this works - I ---on 3/20 @ 01:42 writes: I don't intend to change how this works - I feel that this is a reasonable level. ---on 3/21 @ 02:05 writes: I like this approach a lot, and I think it moves bleed/bruise into something much less binary and able to be built around. I could see this being applied to bleeding in general (though we'd have to look at each bleed guild) as well. Of the two, I like Solution 2 more, as a guaranteed tic of bleed, or especially bruising (as it can fire much more) can be pretty powerful. ---on 3/21 @ 02:06 writes: I would then suggest having the hemorrhaging count for the various bleed/bruise requirements in monk specs, and from there numbers can be adjusted as needed. ---on 3/26 @ 16:50 writes: Here is a more detailed proposal that combines elements of both of these solutions (although mostly solution 1): http://pastebin.com/gCgMDpqL ---on 3/27 @ 03:39 writes: I support the expanded proposal Wobou has in that pastebin. We went over the numbers, it leads to a similar kill time as a 2h warrior 1v1, and should still hopefully provide enough levers for tweaking the balance and interesting gameplay. ---on 3/28 @ 02:09 writes: We were able to get a test version of Wobou's ideas. Here's a log of him hitting me and building hemorhaging: https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/-pKB9c4- ---on 3/28 @ 02:10 writes: Numbers are able to be tweaked of course (I think they need a slight buff), and there's also the idea of giving bonus hemorrhaging for stacking certain afflictions (different per spec). This would also include diminishing returns for groups and a general bleed/bruise nerf and other possible misc changes. Wobou can hopefully explain this all further. ---on 3/28 @ 02:19 writes: Being hit by two people, showing the diminishing returns (numbers still in flux): https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/6dwqPU_K. Ignore my bad resists. ---on 3/28 @ 04:45 writes: The biggest issue with this idea as it stands is how it should be built up. Currently the most ideal offense for building hemorrhaging as I suggested is very boring, plain attacks and kicks to the gut. The only dynamism that comes into play is if gut is parried and if so dealing with that either by threatening with afflictions or clearing parry either with afflictions or the special monk moves that clear parry. My current favorite idea for dealing with this would be to reward hemorrhaging for sticking certain somewhat unpopular affs (healthleech, luminosity, pox, sickening) ice is more difficult because ice affs overall are stronger on average than these other affs but I think you could reward for affs like crushedchest and collapsedlung without too much of an issue. I think it's important that the aff not be hindering in itself so that you are not rewarded for additional hinder by building towards a kill. One thing to note with hemorrhaging as a whole is it devalues haemotox which opens up the poisons and balances that monks can go for a fair bit, and I'm also hoping that concurrent paralysis curing is chosen to prevent the optimal strategy for a dust reward to be poisoning with niricol and mantakaya at all times. ---on 3/28 @ 21:12 writes: Ok, theres a lot in this whole thread, but after viewing all the pastebins I think I have a better feel of what your trying to do. I do agree Wobou, that there is an issue with bleed and bruise. I do have some issues with the proposed solutions. I'm going to just comment on your last pastebin of the revised skill. The biggest issue I have is that this is a pretty hefty change that is being requested at the same time as other important monk changes. One of the recurring themes I see is that your looking to have the armed hemorrhaging actions to focus a specific body part (the gut is what you've suggested multiple times), but with the 100% parry report you also have pending, this can cause heavy complications for your base method. You did mention to include the parry removal skill for all the monk specs (like tahtetso have) but then again, if your 100% parry report goes through, then it's pretty much taking everyone back to the ol' tahtetso double hemi days of protecting the arms to hope to avoid that aff we're going to be spamming to be useful. If you're going to go through the trouble to restrict the hemo to one body part to give parry a chance, what's the point when we all have a skill to bypass parry that can easily be done with a boosted knockdown and a stun? In terms of your numbers, I see that if I'm doing regular affs, I'm barely outpacing their passive curing (70 cured per 10s, afflicting 75 every 10.5s), so I'll essentially be regulated to whatever arm and kick actions they decide to replace, I'm assuming this mechanic won't be gated behind stances so it will have to replace one of my base skill effects) which means that I'm essentially trading any hindering ability in order to actually stack the mechanic (at 150 per 10.5s, healing at 70 per 10s). So at this rate of no hindering affs and 50 hemo every 10s, I'm spending 2 minutes to build ~600 hemo which isn't enough to kill for insta (since bleeding+hemo don't stack) but -might- be enough to setup an insta by bleed if we "activate" it, ---on 3/28 @ 21:13 writes: But this will essentially just lead to the target clotting it all away once the hemo is lifted (which essentially put's us where we are now). This is all of course assuming I am not being hindered or parried. If your parry report goes through, then parry will be a large factor. If they decide to parry 100 gut, now I'm having to throw in my parry bypass form every couple of forms, which further brings down my hemo totals. As an aside, my parry bypass is only available at stance 3, so if we're going to gate a major mechanic behind a single parryable area, that would need to be adjusted to be allowed at at least twist, preferably base. This sort of offense essentially throws away any hindering I would normally be able to do, so my target will be able to pretty much have free reign over me if this is the particular kill method I am focusing (and this method, taking such a long time to achieve would need to be a focused goal from the start of the fight). The only real thing I have to give me a decent chance of hindering while focusing on the hemo mechanic is manatakaya/niricol, otherwise I'm going to have to sacrifice more hemo in order to hinder my target briefly. Aff stacking won't really be an option since every action I switch from the hemo method to hinder will lead to lower hemo totals, and possibly lead to me being nearly even overall. In regards to your last comment about rewarding hemo for sticking unpopular affs, while I'm sure this was not a complete list, the issue I have with that is I don't do any of those affs, and the only way I would be able to do some of them is with odd poison combinations. I do not feel comfortable being reliant on poisons to receive this reward, and I also don't really feel comfortable reworking the tahtetso skillset to include those affs in my kit. You also mentioned that Ice is a bit more difficult, which is true. You mentioned crushedchest and collapsedlung being viable affs without causing much of an impact, but the issue there is I have 4 ways to give cru ---on 3/28 @ 21:14 writes: I have 4 ways to give crushedchest and collapsedlung (1 from stance bonus, 1 on a twist stance kick, 1 on a stance 3 arm action, and 1 on a stance 4 arm action) so I'll essentially just be reaping the hemo benefits from just using my current ice stack form (and depending on the numbers of the bonus in question, it's quite possible to be way more viable than using the actual hemo only forms) will also providing decent curing denial and hindering, At this point the system turns from something to help try to balance monks, to essentially just toning down their initial bleeding, and giving monks a surefire way to kill targets at higher mana pools if they stay too long. Finally, I think this entire mechanic goes against the initial vision the admin had when redesigning monks, which were to be heavy afflictors. This is essentially taking away from that entirely by forcing us to focus on a third mechanic that completely dismisses this premise. While I do think this is a valiant attempt, and I do appreciate all the effort you and Shedrin put into it, I don't think this mechanic would be the right answer, in it's current proposal, and especially if some of these regular reports and special reports go through. I would like to request, if this mechanic is considered, please please please allow us some time on the test server to test and balance it properly before rolling it live, because this is going to be a huge change in how monks as a whole function, and I think that warrants some feedback from the community before implementing. Type MORE to continue reading. (78% shown)